For example (and its only one example of a great many!), FLEX was out> for months and months before I could persuade anyone to tell me what> it was for. Several times I even asked point blank, "What does it> do?", and got a blank look as though I was some kind of crackpot.> The quizzical looks said "are you serious? just download it and find> out for yourself you lazy bugger!">

Microsoft does it a lot too. We'll get announcement from them that> MSNewWidget2 is out, but not actually saying what it does. Or else> giving motherhood statements like "enables users to access their> information easily and rapidly" They get so close to something while> it's being developed, I think they forget that the rest of us have> been busy with our own lives and don't know .>

It's as though simply because it's been released (or more latterly> been made availble on beta) I ought to spend a few hours downloading> and configuring something, in order to find out if I might possibly> use it.>

NO!>

It's not MY responsibility to go to all the trouble to find out what> it does, if you have a new product, it's YOUR responsibility to TELL> ME what it does, and convince me it's worth my while to go to all the> trouble to get the product and put it on my system. These days to> look at a software package can be a commitment of several hours. On> chargeable time, that's several hundred bucks. On my own spare time,> it's worth ten times that because I have precious little of it.>

Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> my time.>

Look this sounds like a rant, and I suppose it is. But I spent enough> time in sales to know that no one has any obligation to look at your> product. IF you've gone to all the trouble to make it, it's up to YOU> to tell potential customer/users why they should bother.>

Just because it's there and available, is insufficient reason for me> to invest the time and money to go get it, on the off-chance it might> be useful for me.> [/RANT MODE OFF]>

There. I feel much better now.>

--> Cheers> Mike Kear> Windsor, NSW, Australia> AFP Webworks> http://afpwebworks.­com> .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year>

Sorry to say, but what a stupid rant.. right now you are saying actually>all the companies making money with Microsoft products or adapting their>business strategy based on a Microsoft roadmap are plain silly. There>hasn't been a single product communicated by Microsoft for which it was>unclear what it did. >

And If you do not understand a product in the end, maybe it is time to>let your fingers do some work and doing some research or ask people>polite what the product does and if they want to help you. If you asked>me, I helped you. It is so easy pointing fingers despite you're little>disclaimer ­>

Micha Schopman>Project Manager>

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort>Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388>KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380>

Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> my time.

Here is the lead paragraph of our original announcement to the CF-Talk list:>

---> Productivity Enhancement today released the first public beta version of its> new product, Plum, which combines a code generator IDE with a comprehensive> application framework and an effective rapid development methodology. Plum> can build a complete website with full administrative control over a large> relational database in a matter of minutes, and building custom business> logic and workflows on top of the Plum Framework is simple and> straightforward.> --->

I thought that was detail enough to give people the basics, yet brief enough> to be appropriate for this list.>

I respect your input, Mike, and your opinion is important because it is most> likely shared by many people, so it would help me to resolve this issue if> you could email me (offlist, if you like) some guidelines as to what you> would have liked to have seen instead of the paragraph I referred to above.>

Please keep in mind that it would have to remain appropriate for this list,> and not just be a long list of features (we pointed to that on our site> instead) or an endless torrent of marketing sprool.>

Thanks in advance for your feedback, Mike.>

Respectfully,>

Adam Phillip Churvis> Member of Team Macromedia> http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com>­

And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I> think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget> that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is.

And as you say, none of us wants to turn this list into an> advertising/spammin­g list.>

And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I> think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget> that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is. And even> after it's been announced, there will still be lots of people who> haven't seen the announcement. (That's why advertisements appear> repeatedly on radio and TV).>

Cheers> Mike Kear> Windsor, NSW, Australia> AFP Webworks> http://afpwebworks.­com> .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year>

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:08:39 -0500, Adam Churvis> <adam-1TPiO38ME6vvE­1xqqTU0zdo2wk3nPB4ZQ­Q4Iyu8u01E@public.gm­ane.org> wrote:> > > Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> > > saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> > > I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> > > better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> > > what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> > > my time.> >

Yeah, you're right, Mike.>

I especially liked your description of the CRM bit. I almost think vendors> design it that way so that people will follow the "mystique" of a thing like> lemmings over a cliff. Everyone rushes to it because everyone else is> rushing to it, but no one really knows what it is or why they're so> desperate to have it.>

<adamrant>> The other thing that astonishes me is the *price* of things like CRM, ERP,> etc. Oracle just bought PeopleSoft for 10.3 Billion dollars because> PeopleSoft generates a heavy stream of cash from a product that costs a> bloody fortune to acquire, customize, maintain, and support its users. They> sell the dream of a well-oiled ERP system, they typically deliver> substantially less, and people just keep on paying massive fees year after> year for it, as if there is no alternative.> </adamrant>>

Thanks for your feedback, Mike.>

Respectfully,>

Adam Phillip Churvis> Member of Team Macromedia> http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com>­

Download Plum and other cool development tools,> and get advanced intensive Master-level training:>

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers> * ColdFusion MX Master Class> * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000>

Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never>saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before>I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my>better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say>what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy>my time.

Come on Mike, really, you have to be kidding me? Someone creates a> tool (and an incredible one it is), opens the beta up and it is going> to be free when released, and you cannot click on a link to see what> it does?>

To me, one of the biggest assets to these lists are the links to> products and knowledge which help me do my job.>

I submit to you it probably took you twice as long to type this email> than it would to have gone to the site to check out what PLUM does.>

Another thought is hey I might not know what it is or does. If that is the case I probably am not the person responsible for those funcitons. However, if the marketing guys did a little better job telling me what it is or does I would be more likely to forward it to the proper personal. Right now I jsut delete what I don't understand. But if I know it is a recruitment tool, content management system, or hardware dumagungy, etc.. then I forward it to the people who work in those areas. Often times a simple explanation such as "Our CMS (content management system) will ....>

Last time I ERPed was after a party in college.>

"It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets >written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing>and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their>interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their>potential users to see the benefits. ">

Confidentiality Notice: This message including any>attachments is for the sole use of the intended>recipient(­s) and may contain confidential and privileged>informat­ion. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or>distribution is prohibited. If you are not the>intended recipient, please contact the sender and>delete any copies of this message. >

I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and> used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if> they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know> what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice> it.

It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets> written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing> and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their> interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their> potential users to see the benefits.

To be honest, I've visited the Plum site and I still don't really> understand what it actually does. It doesn't sound like it supports> any of the standard frameworks and it doesn't work on Mac or Linux it> seems.

The closest thing that comes to mind is Synthis Adalon - but when I> asked on one of the lists whether it is meant to be a competitor to> Adalon, no one responded.

So in addition to being a Windows-only IDE, it's also a competing> framework to Fusebox, Mach II, onTap and so on?>

Is the Plum framework usable separately? Is it documented separately?

I didnt see the statement about what Plum does. After that, there was> a lot of noise about Plum but very little about what its for. I've> seen lots of emails about Plum on this list, but because it wasnt> about anything that concerned me, I never read them.>

I'm not criticising anyone in particular, and I'm not criticising the> Plum team.>

I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and> used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if> they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know> what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice> it.>

It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets> written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing> and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their> interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their> potential users to see the benefits.>

Cheers> Mike Kear> Windsor, NSW, Australia> AFP Webworks> http://afpwebworks.­com> .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year>

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:07:41 -0500, Dan O'Keefe <dan.okeefe-Re5JQEe­Qqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@publ­ic.gmane.org> wrote:> > >Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> > >saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> > >I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> > >better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> > >what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> > >my time.> >

We're not competing, in that we're not trying to dissuade people from using> Fusebox, Mach-ii, onTap, or anything else. Plum is simply another choice,> and we think it's a choice that might appeal to people who don't want to use> one of the frameworks you mentioned.

The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE

OK. So the Plum IDE can't support those other frameworks? What about> the Plum framework? Can it be used separately?

But you can't install that separately and you can't install it on> non-Windows platforms? Do you have any plans to make the framework> available separately so non-Windows users can look at it?

It's not that the Plum IDE *can't* support those other frameworks, Sean; the> Plum IDE was designed to be intimately integrated with the Plum Framework> only. Other frameworks have nothing at all to do with Plum.>

If Mono will support the Plum IDE on non-Windows OSes, then yes. Otherwise,> no.>

I noticed that you have not requested a Beta License Key to try Plum yet,> Sean. Perhaps your questions would be more on target if you understood the> focus of the Plum IDE, and that it isn't a traditional IDE like HomeSite,> Dreamweaver, etc.>

I have a feeling that your main purpose, though, is to try to talk Plum down> in favor of Fusebox and/or Mach-