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BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????
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QAIX > ColdFusion > BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO????? 20 December 2004 20:05:18

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BUT what does it &@#$%^ DO?????

Mike Kear 20 December 2004 20:05:18
 I'm not wanting to point the finger at anyone in particular, but I'm
always astonished at how many people talk about new software products,
without ever saying what it actually DOES!

For example (and its only one example of a great many!), FLEX was out
for months and months before I could persuade anyone to tell me what
it was for. Several times I even asked point blank, "What does it
do?", and got a blank look as though I was some kind of crackpot.
The quizzical looks said "are you serious? just download it and find
out for yourself you lazy bugger!"

Microsoft does it a lot too. We'll get announcement from them that
MSNewWidget2 is out, but not actually saying what it does. Or else
giving motherhood statements like "enables users to access their
information easily and rapidly" They get so close to something while
it's being developed, I think they forget that the rest of us have
been busy with our own lives and don't know .

It's as though simply because it's been released (or more latterly
been made availble on beta) I ought to spend a few hours downloading
and configuring something, in order to find out if I might possibly
use it.

NO!

It's not MY responsibility to go to all the trouble to find out what
it does, if you have a new product, it's YOUR responsibility to TELL
ME what it does, and convince me it's worth my while to go to all the
trouble to get the product and put it on my system. These days to
look at a software package can be a commitment of several hours. On
chargeable time, that's several hundred bucks. On my own spare time,
it's worth ten times that because I have precious little of it.

Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never
saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before
I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my
better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say
what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy
my time.

Look this sounds like a rant, and I suppose it is. But I spent enough
time in sales to know that no one has any obligation to look at your
product. IF you've gone to all the trouble to make it, it's up to YOU
to tell potential customer/users why they should bother.

Just because it's there and available, is insufficient reason for me
to invest the time and money to go get it, on the off-chance it might
be useful for me.
[/RANT MODE OFF]

There. I feel much better now.

--
Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.­com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year

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Mark Drew 14 December 2004 16:30:12 permanent link ]
 Hear hear!

But... in this kind of forum.. (or maybe I am getting it mixed up with
the CMS one) I wouldnt like everyone telling me about <insert product>
in great detail unless I asked specificlly. There are a number of
commercial and non comercial products being developed by people in
this list and it would just get a bit booged down.

P.S. I contribute to CFEclipse which is a plugin for Eclipse which is
a replacement for Dreamweaver aimed at developers. It has nice
features and a responsive team

(is that a good plug?)

MD


On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 00:17:22 +1100, Mike Kear <afpwebworks-Re5JQE­eQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@pub­lic.gmane.org> wrote:> I'm not wanting to point the finger at anyone in particular, but I'm> always astonished at how many people talk about new software products,> without ever saying what it actually DOES!>
For example (and its only one example of a great many!), FLEX was out> for months and months before I could persuade anyone to tell me what> it was for. Several times I even asked point blank, "What does it> do?", and got a blank look as though I was some kind of crackpot.> The quizzical looks said "are you serious? just download it and find> out for yourself you lazy bugger!">
Microsoft does it a lot too. We'll get announcement from them that> MSNewWidget2 is out, but not actually saying what it does. Or else> giving motherhood statements like "enables users to access their> information easily and rapidly" They get so close to something while> it's being developed, I think they forget that the rest of us have> been busy with our own lives and don't know .>
It's as though simply because it's been released (or more latterly> been made availble on beta) I ought to spend a few hours downloading> and configuring something, in order to find out if I might possibly> use it.>
NO!>
It's not MY responsibility to go to all the trouble to find out what> it does, if you have a new product, it's YOUR responsibility to TELL> ME what it does, and convince me it's worth my while to go to all the> trouble to get the product and put it on my system. These days to> look at a software package can be a commitment of several hours. On> chargeable time, that's several hundred bucks. On my own spare time,> it's worth ten times that because I have precious little of it.>
Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> my time.>
Look this sounds like a rant, and I suppose it is. But I spent enough> time in sales to know that no one has any obligation to look at your> product. IF you've gone to all the trouble to make it, it's up to YOU> to tell potential customer/users why they should bother.>
Just because it's there and available, is insufficient reason for me> to invest the time and money to go get it, on the off-chance it might> be useful for me.> [/RANT MODE OFF]>
There. I feel much better now.>
--> Cheers> Mike Kear> Windsor, NSW, Australia> AFP Webworks> http://afpwebworks.­com> .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year>

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Micha Schopman 14 December 2004 16:59:59 permanent link ]
 Sorry to say, but what a stupid rant.. right now you are saying actually
all the companies making money with Microsoft products or adapting their
business strategy based on a Microsoft roadmap are plain silly. There
hasn't been a single product communicated by Microsoft for which it was
unclear what it did.

And If you do not understand a product in the end, maybe it is time to
let your fingers do some work and doing some research or ask people
polite what the product does and if they want to help you. If you asked
me, I helped you. It is so easy pointing fingers despite you're little
disclaimer :)­


Micha Schopman
Project Manager

Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort
Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388
KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380



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Jordan Michaels 14 December 2004 17:01:12 permanent link ]
 It's always amazing to me to see how much common courtesy gets violently
flung out the window in an online environment. Instead of saying "I
disagree with that comment, here's why..." You say, "what a stupid rant".

Clearly, if someone disagrees with anything that you believe, they must
be "stupid". Indeed, if someone says anything at all, and you don't like
the way it sounds, then quite naturally they're "stupid". [end sarcasm]

Even if you disagree with someone who posts to this list, is it so
difficult to have a little common courtesy and mutual respect?

-JM


Micha Schopman wrote:
Sorry to say, but what a stupid rant.. right now you are saying actually>all the companies making money with Microsoft products or adapting their>business strategy based on a Microsoft roadmap are plain silly. There>hasn't been a single product communicated by Microsoft for which it was>unclear what it did. >
And If you do not understand a product in the end, maybe it is time to>let your fingers do some work and doing some research or ask people>polite what the product does and if they want to help you. If you asked>me, I helped you. It is so easy pointing fingers despite you're little>disclaimer :)­>
Micha Schopman>Project Manager>
Modern Media, Databankweg 12 M, 3821 AL Amersfoort>Tel 033-4535377, Fax 033-4535388>KvK Amersfoort 39081679, Rabo 39.48.05.380>

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Adam Churvis 14 December 2004 18:08:39 permanent link ]
 
Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> my time.

Here is the lead paragraph of our original announcement to the CF-Talk list:

---
Productivity Enhancement today released the first public beta version of its
new product, Plum, which combines a code generator IDE with a comprehensive
application framework and an effective rapid development methodology. Plum
can build a complete website with full administrative control over a large
relational database in a matter of minutes, and building custom business
logic and workflows on top of the Plum Framework is simple and
straightforward.
---

I thought that was detail enough to give people the basics, yet brief enough
to be appropriate for this list.

I respect your input, Mike, and your opinion is important because it is most
likely shared by many people, so it would help me to resolve this issue if
you could email me (offlist, if you like) some guidelines as to what you
would have liked to have seen instead of the paragraph I referred to above.

Please keep in mind that it would have to remain appropriate for this list,
and not just be a long list of features (we pointed to that on our site
instead) or an endless torrent of marketing sprool.

Thanks in advance for your feedback, Mike.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000


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Mike Kear 14 December 2004 18:41:30 permanent link ]
 Adam, that looks pretty good to me. If i'd seen it (and i know this
will shock some listers, but I dont get time to read every post) I'd
have thought that's enough to warrant my investing some time in
finding out more.

And as you say, none of us wants to turn this list into an
advertising/spammin­g list.

And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I
think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget
that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is. And even
after it's been announced, there will still be lots of people who
haven't seen the announcement. (That's why advertisements appear
repeatedly on radio and TV).


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.­com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year


On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:08:39 -0500, Adam Churvis
<adam-1TPiO38ME6vvE­1xqqTU0zdo2wk3nPB4ZQ­Q4Iyu8u01E@public.gm­ane.org> wrote:> > Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> > saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> > I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> > better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> > what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> > my time.>
Here is the lead paragraph of our original announcement to the CF-Talk list:>
---> Productivity Enhancement today released the first public beta version of its> new product, Plum, which combines a code generator IDE with a comprehensive> application framework and an effective rapid development methodology. Plum> can build a complete website with full administrative control over a large> relational database in a matter of minutes, and building custom business> logic and workflows on top of the Plum Framework is simple and> straightforward.> --->
I thought that was detail enough to give people the basics, yet brief enough> to be appropriate for this list.>
I respect your input, Mike, and your opinion is important because it is most> likely shared by many people, so it would help me to resolve this issue if> you could email me (offlist, if you like) some guidelines as to what you> would have liked to have seen instead of the paragraph I referred to above.>
Please keep in mind that it would have to remain appropriate for this list,> and not just be a long list of features (we pointed to that on our site> instead) or an endless torrent of marketing sprool.>
Thanks in advance for your feedback, Mike.>
Respectfully,>
Adam Phillip Churvis> Member of Team Macromedia> http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com

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Adam Churvis 14 December 2004 18:56:00 permanent link ]
 
And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I> think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget> that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is.

Yeah, you're right, Mike.

I especially liked your description of the CRM bit. I almost think vendors
design it that way so that people will follow the "mystique" of a thing like
lemmings over a cliff. Everyone rushes to it because everyone else is
rushing to it, but no one really knows what it is or why they're so
desperate to have it.

<adamrant>
The other thing that astonishes me is the *price* of things like CRM, ERP,
etc. Oracle just bought PeopleSoft for 10.3 Billion dollars because
PeopleSoft generates a heavy stream of cash from a product that costs a
bloody fortune to acquire, customize, maintain, and support its users. They
sell the dream of a well-oiled ERP system, they typically deliver
substantially less, and people just keep on paying massive fees year after
year for it, as if there is no alternative.
</adamrant>

Thanks for your feedback, Mike.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000




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Rob 14 December 2004 18:58:03 permanent link ]
 Gmail keeps the thread emails forever so when you click on the title
of a list email you see the whole thread, which is really awesome to
get some context. Want a gmail account?

Let me know if you want one I have lots just sitting here.


On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:41:30 +1100, Mike Kear <afpwebworks-Re5JQE­eQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@pub­lic.gmane.org> wrote:> Adam, that looks pretty good to me. If i'd seen it (and i know this> will shock some listers, but I dont get time to read every post) I'd> have thought that's enough to warrant my investing some time in> finding out more.>
And as you say, none of us wants to turn this list into an> advertising/spammin­g list.>
And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I> think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget> that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is. And even> after it's been announced, there will still be lots of people who> haven't seen the announcement. (That's why advertisements appear> repeatedly on radio and TV).>
Cheers> Mike Kear> Windsor, NSW, Australia> AFP Webworks> http://afpwebworks.­com> .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year>
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:08:39 -0500, Adam Churvis> <adam-1TPiO38ME6vvE­1xqqTU0zdo2wk3nPB4ZQ­Q4Iyu8u01E@public.gm­ane.org> wrote:> > > Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> > > saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> > > I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> > > better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> > > what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> > > my time.> >
Here is the lead paragraph of our original announcement to the CF-Talk list:> >
---> > Productivity Enhancement today released the first public beta version of its> > new product, Plum, which combines a code generator IDE with a comprehensive> > application framework and an effective rapid development methodology. Plum> > can build a complete website with full administrative control over a large> > relational database in a matter of minutes, and building custom business> > logic and workflows on top of the Plum Framework is simple and> > straightforward.> > ---> >
I thought that was detail enough to give people the basics, yet brief enough> > to be appropriate for this list.> >
I respect your input, Mike, and your opinion is important because it is most> > likely shared by many people, so it would help me to resolve this issue if> > you could email me (offlist, if you like) some guidelines as to what you> > would have liked to have seen instead of the paragraph I referred to above.> >
Please keep in mind that it would have to remain appropriate for this list,> > and not just be a long list of features (we pointed to that on our site> > instead) or an endless torrent of marketing sprool.> >
Thanks in advance for your feedback, Mike.> >
Respectfully,> >
Adam Phillip Churvis> > Member of Team Macromedia> > http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com >

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Rick Mason 14 December 2004 20:44:33 permanent link ]
 Adam,

Few years back some of my business friends started asking me whether
they should go "urp" or not. Didn't have the faintest idea what they
were talking about.

Then I was watching CNN one nigt and there was some software vendor
loudly proclaiming that if you didn't get an ERP system this instant
you were a dunderhead.

Nowhere in the ad did they explain what ERP was at all. Guess they
assumed their target customers knew, but I will bet that quite a few
did not.

I've seen ads in the trade magazines myself and wondered what in the
heck the company was selling. I do think people get too close to what
they're doing and just expect everyone to understand.


Rick Mason


On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 10:56:00 -0500, Adam Churvis
<adam-1TPiO38ME6vvE­1xqqTU0zdo2wk3nPB4ZQ­Q4Iyu8u01E@public.gm­ane.org> wrote:> > And i wasn't taking a swipe at PLUM especially. It's very common. I> > think the people working on a project get so close to it, they forget> > that there'll be lots of people who dont know what it is.>
Yeah, you're right, Mike.>
I especially liked your description of the CRM bit. I almost think vendors> design it that way so that people will follow the "mystique" of a thing like> lemmings over a cliff. Everyone rushes to it because everyone else is> rushing to it, but no one really knows what it is or why they're so> desperate to have it.>
<adamrant>> The other thing that astonishes me is the *price* of things like CRM, ERP,> etc. Oracle just bought PeopleSoft for 10.3 Billion dollars because> PeopleSoft generates a heavy stream of cash from a product that costs a> bloody fortune to acquire, customize, maintain, and support its users. They> sell the dream of a well-oiled ERP system, they typically deliver> substantially less, and people just keep on paying massive fees year after> year for it, as if there is no alternative.> </adamrant>>
Thanks for your feedback, Mike.>
Respectfully,>
Adam Phillip Churvis> Member of Team Macromedia> http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com
Download Plum and other cool development tools,> and get advanced intensive Master-level training:>
* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers> * ColdFusion MX Master Class> * Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000>

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Dan O'Keefe 15 December 2004 00:07:41 permanent link ]
 
Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never>saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before>I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my>better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say>what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy>my time.

Come on Mike, really, you have to be kidding me? Someone creates a
tool (and an incredible one it is), opens the beta up and it is going
to be free when released, and you cannot click on a link to see what
it does?

To me, one of the biggest assets to these lists are the links to
products and knowledge which help me do my job.

I submit to you it probably took you twice as long to type this email
than it would to have gone to the site to check out what PLUM does.

Dan

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Mike Kear 15 December 2004 00:44:12 permanent link ]
 Dan, I get abour 800 emails a day. Probably 2/3 of them have links
in them. I just dont click on links in emails unless there is a
reason. Forgetting the spam, if I went and looked at all those sites,
I would never get any work done. I'm not unique here. Most of us
have more email in a day than we can deal with and still get our work
done.

I didnt see the statement about what Plum does. After that, there was
a lot of noise about Plum but very little about what its for. I've
seen lots of emails about Plum on this list, but because it wasnt
about anything that concerned me, I never read them.

I'm not criticising anyone in particular, and I'm not criticising the
Plum team.

I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and
used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if
they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know
what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice
it.


It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets
written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing
and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their
interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their
potential users to see the benefits.


Cheers
Mike Kear
Windsor, NSW, Australia
AFP Webworks
http://afpwebworks.­com
.com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year


On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:07:41 -0500, Dan O'Keefe <dan.okeefe-Re5JQEe­Qqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@publ­ic.gmane.org> wrote:> >Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> >saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> >I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> >better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> >what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> >my time.>
Come on Mike, really, you have to be kidding me? Someone creates a> tool (and an incredible one it is), opens the beta up and it is going> to be free when released, and you cannot click on a link to see what> it does?>
To me, one of the biggest assets to these lists are the links to> products and knowledge which help me do my job.>
I submit to you it probably took you twice as long to type this email> than it would to have gone to the site to check out what PLUM does.>

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Ken Ketsdever 15 December 2004 00:56:19 permanent link ]
 Another thought is hey I might not know what it is or does. If that is the case I probably am not the person responsible for those funcitons. However, if the marketing guys did a little better job telling me what it is or does I would be more likely to forward it to the proper personal. Right now I jsut delete what I don't understand. But if I know it is a recruitment tool, content management system, or hardware dumagungy, etc.. then I forward it to the people who work in those areas. Often times a simple explanation such as "Our CMS (content management system) will ....

Last time I ERPed was after a party in college.


"It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets
written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing
and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their
interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their
potential users to see the benefits. "

Confidentiality Notice: This message including any
attachments is for the sole use of the intended
recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender and
delete any copies of this message.



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Dave 15 December 2004 01:04:50 permanent link ]
 in the case of plum, i think mike just missed it a few times but its also still in beta and knowing how good of a job adam & david do, im sure they will be making u fully aware upon public release (which is very very soon)

plum makes that .net junk program will brought up look like ****




---------- Original Message -------------------­---------------
From: "Ken Ketsdever" <ken.ketsdever-2wSd­TXsJYQTBCgU9O1rxug@p­ublic.gmane.org>
Reply-To: cf-talk-2K/2x8RPSj9­p9z4BATjFtQC/G2K4zDH­f@public.gmane.org
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2004 13:56:19 -0800
Another thought is hey I might not know what it is or does. If that is the case I probably am not the person responsible for those funcitons. However, if the marketing guys did a little better job telling me what it is or does I would be more likely to forward it to the proper personal. Right now I jsut delete what I don't understand. But if I know it is a recruitment tool, content management system, or hardware dumagungy, etc.. then I forward it to the people who work in those areas. Often times a simple explanation such as "Our CMS (content management system) will ....>
Last time I ERPed was after a party in college.>
"It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets >written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing>and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their>interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their>potential users to see the benefits. ">
Confidentiality Notice: This message including any>attachments is for the sole use of the intended>recipient(­s) and may contain confidential and privileged>informat­ion. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or>distribution is prohibited. If you are not the>intended recipient, please contact the sender and>delete any copies of this message. >

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Sean Corfield 15 December 2004 02:07:31 permanent link ]
 On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:44:12 +1100, Mike Kear <afpwebworks-Re5JQE­eQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@pub­lic.gmane.org> wrote:> I didnt see the statement about what Plum does. After that, there was> a lot of noise about Plum but very little about what its for. I've> seen lots of emails about Plum on this list, but because it wasnt> about anything that concerned me, I never read them.

To be honest, I've visited the Plum site and I still don't really
understand what it actually does. It doesn't sound like it supports
any of the standard frameworks and it doesn't work on Mac or Linux it
seems.

The closest thing that comes to mind is Synthis Adalon - but when I
asked on one of the lists whether it is meant to be a competitor to
Adalon, no one responded.
I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and> used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if> they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know> what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice> it.

Well, the original email I saw about it was posted by Peter Tilbrook
on cfaussie and it absolutely did *not* say what the product was. When
I saw a post from Adam directly, it gave some vague idea about the
product.
It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets> written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing> and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their> interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their> potential users to see the benefits.

I agree and whilst I teased someone on cfaussie for being "too lazy"
to click the link to go find out about it (I was joking and the humor
was really aimed at Peter T for his information-free post about Plum),
I would like to encourage authors to provide more information when
they are promoting something especially including information about
which platforms products run on and what databases they support. I get
*very* frustrated if I have to go to a site and navigate through to
the download - and sometimes as far as actually installing a trial
version! - only to find that the product is platform-specific!
--
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield­.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.­org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield­.org/breezeme

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

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Add comment
Adam Churvis 15 December 2004 04:20:28 permanent link ]
 
To be honest, I've visited the Plum site and I still don't really> understand what it actually does. It doesn't sound like it supports> any of the standard frameworks and it doesn't work on Mac or Linux it> seems.

The Plum Framework is intended to become a standard framework for ColdFusion
development. It's a rich framework that contains many useful services and
reusable code libraries.

The Plum IDE is built on the .NET Framework, so it runs on Windows OSes only
right now, but the generated code will run on any platform. We'll soon see
how the Plum IDE runs on Mono, but I'm not counting on anything.
The closest thing that comes to mind is Synthis Adalon - but when I> asked on one of the lists whether it is meant to be a competitor to> Adalon, no one responded.

As best as I can tell, Adalon generates only the shells into which you have
to handcraft all your own code, but it's still one hell of a cool product.
It also generates documentation and other useful stuff. Everyone should
check out Adalon to see if it fits your bill. I hear the guys who run the
company are very helpful, too. I've met them a couple of times and they
were very knowledgeable.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000


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Sean Corfield 15 December 2004 07:23:36 permanent link ]
 On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 20:20:28 -0500, Adam Churvis
<adam-1TPiO38ME6vvE­1xqqTU0zdo2wk3nPB4ZQ­Q4Iyu8u01E@public.gm­ane.org> wrote:> The Plum Framework is intended to become a standard framework for ColdFusion> development. It's a rich framework that contains many useful services and> reusable code libraries.

So in addition to being a Windows-only IDE, it's also a competing
framework to Fusebox, Mach II, onTap and so on?

Is the Plum framework usable separately? Is it documented separately?
--
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield­.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.­org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield­.org/breezeme

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

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Adam Churvis 15 December 2004 17:42:19 permanent link ]
 
So in addition to being a Windows-only IDE, it's also a competing> framework to Fusebox, Mach II, onTap and so on?>
Is the Plum framework usable separately? Is it documented separately?

It sounds like you're trying to make the fact that we have a new framework
for ColdFusion developers sound like a negative thing.

We're not competing, in that we're not trying to dissuade people from using
Fusebox, Mach-ii, onTap, or anything else. Plum is simply another choice,
and we think it's a choice that might appeal to people who don't want to use
one of the frameworks you mentioned.

All Plum documentation is contained in a single integrated .chm (compiled
help) file, but the Plum IDE, the Plum Framework, and the Plum Methodology
are all documented separately. The Plum Framework is conveniently installed
by the Plum IDE, and you can integrate as much or as little of the Plum
Framework with code generated by the Plum IDE (or handcrafted code) as you
like. It's entirely up to the developer.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
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Dan O'Keefe 15 December 2004 19:39:55 permanent link ]
 Fair enough, I prefer to have shorter emails with a link if I am
interested in checking it out, I go there. I rarely click on any link
unless it is from a trusted list such as this and the subject
interests me.

Dan


On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 08:44:12 +1100, Mike Kear <afpwebworks-Re5JQE­eQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@pub­lic.gmane.org> wrote:> Dan, I get abour 800 emails a day. Probably 2/3 of them have links> in them. I just dont click on links in emails unless there is a> reason. Forgetting the spam, if I went and looked at all those sites,> I would never get any work done. I'm not unique here. Most of us> have more email in a day than we can deal with and still get our work> done.>
I didnt see the statement about what Plum does. After that, there was> a lot of noise about Plum but very little about what its for. I've> seen lots of emails about Plum on this list, but because it wasnt> about anything that concerned me, I never read them.>
I'm not criticising anyone in particular, and I'm not criticising the> Plum team.>
I'm just saying that the people who want a product to be accepted and> used, need to recognise that they will get a lot more acceptance if> they remember that many of their potential customers/users wont know> what its for. And therefore either wont bother or wont even notice> it.>
It's not MY responsibility to learn about everything that gets> written. Its the AUTHORS job (or who ever is looking after marketing> and promotion) to tell me why I should bother with it. It's in their> interest I'd have thought, to make it as easy as possible for their> potential users to see the benefits.>
Cheers> Mike Kear> Windsor, NSW, Australia> AFP Webworks> http://afpwebworks.­com> .com,.net,.org domains from AUD$20/Year>
On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 16:07:41 -0500, Dan O'Keefe <dan.okeefe-Re5JQEe­Qqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@publ­ic.gmane.org> wrote:> > >Another example: I've been hearing about PLUM for ages, but I never> > >saw anyone saying what it DOES. I had to go to the PLUM site before> > >I found a statement saying what it is. And that was against my> > >better judgement. If it's too much trouble for the PLUM team to say> > >what it's for, why should I go to the effort? i have plenty to occupy> > >my time.> >
Come on Mike, really, you have to be kidding me? Someone creates a> > tool (and an incredible one it is), opens the beta up and it is going> > to be free when released, and you cannot click on a link to see what> > it does?> >
To me, one of the biggest assets to these lists are the links to> > products and knowledge which help me do my job.> >
I submit to you it probably took you twice as long to type this email> > than it would to have gone to the site to check out what PLUM does.> >

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Sean Corfield 15 December 2004 21:26:29 permanent link ]
 On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 09:42:19 -0500, Adam Churvis
<adam-1TPiO38ME6vvE­1xqqTU0zdo2wk3nPB4ZQ­Q4Iyu8u01E@public.gm­ane.org> wrote:> It sounds like you're trying to make the fact that we have a new framework> for ColdFusion developers sound like a negative thing.

Not at all, just trying to get a clear picture in my head about Plum
since I can't test it.
We're not competing, in that we're not trying to dissuade people from using> Fusebox, Mach-ii, onTap, or anything else. Plum is simply another choice,> and we think it's a choice that might appeal to people who don't want to use> one of the frameworks you mentioned.

OK. So the Plum IDE can't support those other frameworks? What about
the Plum framework? Can it be used separately?
The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE

But you can't install that separately and you can't install it on
non-Windows platforms? Do you have any plans to make the framework
available separately so non-Windows users can look at it?
--
Sean A Corfield -- http://www.corfield­.org/
Team Fusebox -- http://www.fusebox.­org/
Breeze Me! -- http://www.corfield­.org/breezeme

"If you're not annoying somebody, you're not really alive."
-- Margaret Atwood

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Adam Churvis 15 December 2004 21:56:26 permanent link ]
 
OK. So the Plum IDE can't support those other frameworks? What about> the Plum framework? Can it be used separately?

It's not that the Plum IDE *can't* support those other frameworks, Sean; the
Plum IDE was designed to be intimately integrated with the Plum Framework
only. Other frameworks have nothing at all to do with Plum.
The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE>
But you can't install that separately and you can't install it on> non-Windows platforms? Do you have any plans to make the framework> available separately so non-Windows users can look at it?

If Mono will support the Plum IDE on non-Windows OSes, then yes. Otherwise,
no.

I noticed that you have not requested a Beta License Key to try Plum yet,
Sean. Perhaps your questions would be more on target if you understood the
focus of the Plum IDE, and that it isn't a traditional IDE like HomeSite,
Dreamweaver, etc.

I have a feeling that your main purpose, though, is to try to talk Plum down
in favor of Fusebox and/or Mach-ii, which everyone knows is your framework
of choice.

Respectfully,

Adam Phillip Churvis
Member of Team Macromedia
http://www.Producti­vityEnhancement.com

Download Plum and other cool development tools,
and get advanced intensive Master-level training:

* C# & ASP.NET for ColdFusion Developers
* ColdFusion MX Master Class
* Advanced Development with CFMX and SQL Server 2000


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Douglas Knudsen 15 December 2004 23:08:52 permanent link ]
 maybe we need to get mike D to start a CF-Argument list, eh? j/k

I've looked at the docs for PLUM, haven't had the time to do the beta
thing though. I actually ust pitched it to my boss and team yesterday
during a short chat about using code gen tools. It seems to me that
PLUM is basically a code gen tool. Kind of like the Interactonline
DWMX extensions, but abit more expansive. In order to use a codegen
tool, you need a UI, hence an 'IDE'; maybe in this sense the term IDE
is used kind of loosely. In order to build a code gen tool , you need
to use some sort of framework to abstract the process so to speak.

Is this far off Adam?

Doug




On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 13:56:26 -0500, Adam Churvis
<adam-1TPiO38ME6vvE­1xqqTU0zdo2wk3nPB4ZQ­Q4Iyu8u01E@public.gm­ane.org> wrote:> > OK. So the Plum IDE can't support those other frameworks? What about> > the Plum framework? Can it be used separately?>
It's not that the Plum IDE *can't* support those other frameworks, Sean; the> Plum IDE was designed to be intimately integrated with the Plum Framework> only. Other frameworks have nothing at all to do with Plum.>
The Plum Framework is conveniently installed by the Plum IDE> >
But you can't install that separately and you can't install it on> > non-Windows platforms? Do you have any plans to make the framework> > available separately so non-Windows users can look at it?>
If Mono will support the Plum IDE on non-Windows OSes, then yes. Otherwise,> no.>
I noticed that you have not requested a Beta License Key to try Plum yet,> Sean. Perhaps your questions would be more on target if you understood the> focus of the Plum IDE, and that it isn't a traditional IDE like HomeSite,> Dreamweaver, etc.>
I have a feeling that your main purpose, though, is to try to talk Plum down> in favor of Fusebox and/or Mach-